Another Reminder About Loot

[Poisonenvy]

 

I feel like I'm repeating this fairly regularly, so I'll make it as simple as I possibly can.

• If you have a character in the guild, and you fulfil any requirements requested for a raid in the calendar on that character, you're able to sign up and attend with that character.
• If you attend a raid and you win loot using our normal Personal Loot system, that loot is yours.  No-one else's.  You have no requirement to do anything with it ..you can sell it, disenchant it, chuck it on the floor, whatever.  We don't mind.
• If you attend a raid and you win loot using the normal Personal Loot system and you *want* to donate it to the guild, you can do so.  Once you have donated loot to the guild, it is no longer yours.  The loot master will ask for rolls from the rest of the raid group and, if no-one wants it, it will either be sold or disenchanted for the guild vault (if it's BoE it may be played in the vault for others to use later).
• If you attend a raid and someone else gets loot you want - tough.  You do not whisper them, or ask them in any way if they want it, or suggest they give it to you or anyone else.  
• If someone else gets loot you want, and they donate it to the guild, you can roll on it within the parameters of our need/greed loot rolling rules.  If you don't know what they are, read them.  If you don't understand them, ask.  Do not make "fun" rolls, or "pretend" rolls, or "prank" rolls or any other variation.  You roll properly, within the loot rules, if you want the loot as an upgrade, or you don't roll at all.
• We DO NOT differentiate between "main" and "alt" characters.  If you are attending a raid, you're there for a boss kill and you're eligible for loot, then you have the option to roll for any donated loot if you wish (within the parameters of the guild loot rules).
• We DO NOT have any rules about people only being able to roll whilst on specific characters; or anyone getting priority on loot rolls; or being removed from the guild or excluded from raids if they raid elsewhere as well with either the same or other characters.

If you're unhappy about any of the above, mention below.  If no-one complains below, I'll assume everyone is happy with the above.

If you're unhappy with any of the above, well I'm sorry but these have been the guild rules for a considerable number of years - they're not going to change so the only alternatives you have are either to suck it up and get used to it, or leave.

[Poisonenvy]

Just for continuity - as not everyone uses discord, I've also copied some of my comments from there, to here:

[9:45 AM] Poisonenvy: We've been told that "some people" are finding it difficult to agree with our guild rules.  We've also had the suggestion that we change the loot rules so that we refuse to give loot to anyone we think might leave the guild at some point in the future, amonst other suggestions ... hopefully the majority of people understand why this is not realistic or fair.  Those who think this is the most reasonable rule in the world and think we should implement it now .. are really in the wrong guild lol
[9:55 AM] Poisonenvy: I'll say it again, because it seems to warrant it .. but Dark Wolves as a whole have been raiding for many many years.  Our loot rules over that time have basically stayed the same, simply being tweaked as circumstances require.  We have spent that time listening to feedback from guild and raid members and making the rules as fair as possible whilst sticking to the ethos of the guild.  We have looked at all the possible alternatives and have never found anything close to as fair as we currently have, that does not also require a massive amount of admin to deal with.  We ARE a casual guild.  We stick to the ethos that a guild member is a person, not a character and we treat people as such.  If someone attends a raid, REGARDLESS OF WHICH CHARACTER THEY'RE ON .. if they are eligable to roll for loot, they're allowed to roll for loot.  They're making the effort, they're contributing, they're bringing their personal experience to the raid group.  Just because you're on a different character does not mean you're suddenly a different person.  We are not  going to start making up restrictive rules about who can bring which character and who is allowed to roll for loot.  If we start down that road (a) it requires a humongous amount of admin (b) it causes bad feeling and drama and leads to people leaving (c) it is open to abuse.  When you get to the point where you have to have someone decide who gets what, with no reliance on RNG, then you also arrive at that place where you have to have someone everyone completely trusts, all of the time.  And even then it is open to drama as people will perceive wrong doing if they don't get what they want.  It is inevitable, it would happen, it has happened in the past.  Even with the very open option we have now, where everyone can see who rolls what and everyone has the same chance, we still have people complain that its "fixed" and it's "unfair" and that we should specifically give some loot to them because reasons.
[10:00 AM] Poisonenvy: I realise it may potentially be inviting a mass exodus (or at least a mini-exodus) .. but one of the first things we ask people when they join is to read the rules, and to agree to them.  If raiders (actually, any guild member) feel they cannot agree to and understand our guild rules, they should not be in this guild.  Myself and my officers have spent an inordinate amount of time dealing with "I don't agree with this rule because I want more loot" complaints - I'd rather reduce our raid attendance figures by half and have an easier life, than put up with the excessive admin just so we can kill bosses faster (which actually, never works out that way anyway .. happened in the past, seen it, experienced it).  I understand if people want to leave because of this .. I just ask that they do so gracefully.  If they're going to stay - I'm happy to clarify guild rules, to explain "why" .. but not forever.  They should be self explanatory and common sense, especially if you consider the ramifications of the alternatives.  If you find you don't agree with them, don't stay.

[PhuzaZA]

I'd just like to clarify to members also. We do keep an eye out for people "gaming" the system, suspicious activity is noticed, and we do rely on guild members to bring to out attention and funny going's on that we may miss. Raiders are usually very keen to point out miss or incorrect rolls on loot. (Thank you all by the way, i'm sometimes overwhelmed with whispers, chat, rolls, checking my own gear, that i miss things. even rolling on things i shouldn't be :p)

 

[Liengfield]

dafuq happened again? I am gone one week and loot is again the hot topic? ffs :P

[Poisonenvy]

Liengfield wrote:

dafuq happened again? I am gone one week and loot is again the hot topic? ffs :P

 Precisely how I feel!  I'm just gonna start copy/pasting my messages I think .. they're starting to become a habit.  But to be fair .. it's really not a problem for the majority of people.  I realise that sometimes the whole randomness just starts annoying people if they're on a bit of a bad streak, but that's no reason to let it spill into a bigger problem than it actually is.

At the end of the day ..we're all having fun and enjoying raids.  If someone is specifically wanting to raid but unable to raid because of loot, give us a shout .. I'm sure we'd be able to get some groups together to help out or at least give advice.  If people are already enjoying raids and just annoyed they're missing a bit of loot .. just wait.  Patience is the key.  It won't be long before the next raid is out and every bit of loot suddenly becomes obsolete.  Also .. the more people get loot now, the more loot is available for donations later.

If people are ONLY coming to raids for loot upgrades, and not getting them, and not enjoying our raids ..they're in the wrong place.  I'd suggest a higher level raiding guild that no doubt has plenty more spare loot floating around.  Just remember there is always a compromise somewhere along the way. 

For people who are unhappy and have brought up "suggestions" for alternatives ..think them through.  Work out how your suggestions would work in practice - how would you administer them, how would you police them, how would you enforce them.  There are reasons and a background for all of the rules we have in place.  They have been tried and tested over many years and have been established as, if not perfect, at least the fairest option available in a less than perfect world.

Also .. please try to see the bigger picture!  A raid team is just that .. a team of different people up to 30 strong (in our case, I guess you could say a lot larger as although the maximum raid is 30, we have more than 30 raiders if all wanted to raid at the same time).  In order to maintain what we have and how we do it, we need to consider what is best for that team (and the guild) as a whole.  One or two people complaining because they're not getting the loot they want, which is purely down to RNG, is not a problem that we can fix (unless anyone happens to be a rogue Blizzard employee ...!).  One or two people complaining that someone else is getting more loot than they are, or they feel another raider doesn't deserve loot as much as they do, is just mean spirited and certainly not something that should exist in a team environment .. certainly not ours.